Hey everybody, I want to welcome you to our show. This show is called the drunken UX podcast and I am your host, co host. Damn it, I had it. I was gonna come in saying I was the co host and I screwed it up. I let the cadence get to me. I was sitting in my head I was thinking about this Joe Rogan thing that that’s going around where an AI system emulated Joe Rogan’s voice they, they analyze, like hundreds of hours of Joe Rogan’s podcast and generated a computerized version of him and it was frighteningly good. Wait, wait, wait, is it where

No, no, no. Like they they had a machine learning system go in and remove the audio to like generate waveforms that do blood like, you know, like in sci fi when you know, you know, initiate self destruct authorization for car Delta seven, and you but you need the voiceprint. Right, you need the right voice for it. So what they did was they generated a system that unlike you know, you listen to Siri or Alexa or Google or whatever, and you know, they’ve got the kind of not totally human sounding voice.

It was that but better. Interesting. It wasn’t quite as angry or energized as Joe Rogan but

Well, that’s that’s their business. I handle. I handle regular drunk just fine. Hey, Anybody? Anybody everybody. You’re listening to drunk new x podcast. This is episode number 37. We’re going to be going over the Gutenberg accessibility audit with a everybody’s favorite WP campus person, Rachel cherry. She is here on the other microphone across the table from me, but not really kind of a virtual table. I don’t know how this system works. Save Aaron.

The irony of this is right. So Rachel is joining us from Ithaca this evening. And Aaron is in Ithaca. But Aaron, I don’t think you’re gonna see Rachel Right.

And so next week is the web accessibility summit. So Rachel’s coming down to southwest Missouri for that, and I’m going to that, and I will actually get to see Rachel.

But yeah, yeah, it’s a very strange amalgamation of timing and people. Get the the normal well, crap out of the way. First off, if you liked the drunken UX podcast, if you enjoy it, we do go thank our sponsors, new cloud over at New cloud com slash drunken UX. They do interactive maps and have a back end and do illustrations, and have some other neat accessibility stuff that they’re going to be launching at the accessibility summit for the first time. That’ll be something to go check out there on Twitter and shared some stuff about that earlier today.

What’s that? Well, rum. I remember this conversation. I don’t remember what it was now.

Oh, that’s right. Yeah, yeah, the bourbon.

now I gotta go buy another bottle of bourbon. I cracked open a brand new bottle of Monkey shoulder this evening. This is from batch number 27. I’m sorry, but even as somebody who like I I will drink a blended scotch, but I don’t love it. But man, monkey shoulder has earned a permanent spot in my bar. It is so good.

And then I gave you the history lesson.

Hey, everything’s got to come from somewhere. Speaking of everybody or everything coming from somewhere. Joining us this evening is the director of WP campus the solver of all your CSS placeholder issues. The the not quite late, but always great. Rachel cherry, Rachel, thanks for joining us this evening and taking some time away from the mountains of work. Take care of that could be doing right now.

Everybody’s got to have their vice. And I applaud you for that it’s certainly more responsible than what we’re doing. It Right, Rachel sounds familiar. Go back and check out the build process. I think it was episode three or four. I didn’t. So I didn’t pre check. But Rachel joined us back then and and talked about her career and how she got into development and all of this stuff. That’s very great. Listen, for anybody who is thinking about how they could get started in this stuff. So go check that out. But Rachel is a fountain of knowledge on just everything WordPress, right, you are the expert at this point, I think is the way that we should describe

too much, much there. That but you are important, right? Because when with all the Gutenberg stuff that was coming up, and when we’re not working press announce this and started rolling into all this development. I want to say, what was it about two years ago, at this point, the first sort of alpha preview plugin started rolling out and people started playing with this new moon, new editor that that was coming out. And it was about that time that the first concerns kind of started trickling out. And we’ve got, we’ll go back and we’ll throw some links in our show notes about this. Because we’ve we’ve linked to them before. Some of these articles talking about the different issues that people were worried about them that they saw things that weren’t putting accessibility first, that the you know, features were getting designed without a thought towards this. And that problem was something that started gestating. You know, what, 18 months ago at this point, 24 months ago, I think it was

Yeah, that was that was right after that first big alarm got raised, I think. Yeah. Because that was, what was it last year? I can’t remember what what month it was. But I’m Ryan right felt if anybody’s familiar with with her she was the accessibility lead. For was and Rachel you can maybe you maybe know this. It was she she was the accessibility lead for WordPress, right, not just the Gutenberg side of things she

The reality, right, is that it’s a very forest through the trees kind of problem. That when you talk about being able to look at one little piece of it and say, Oh, it’s good. But when you put all those pieces together, that’s where it starts to kind of be like, oh, nobody’s paying attention to that picture.

I’ve tried it. It’s not even an accessibility issue at that point. Like for somebody like me, it’s literally just a usability thing that I can’t make a table do the things I need a table to do using that tool? Oh,

And the audit itself, right, focused almost entirely on that, because there were three tasks that were involved in this that they asked the users to do. And they all were it was all a publishing process kind of thing we did was focusing very much on the the back end side, not that front inside, is that a correct? assessment of that?

What we call that in a lot of areas is, is ego garbage in garbage out. Like even if a tool is perfect in every way it can be like you can convert any block to HTML, you can always go in there and muck it up and cause output to be something that is non optimal. And even Aaron, you and I had this conversation, and I had to correct that. Because I commented on like a super early version of the color picker that I had seen, right. And I hadn’t used it recently enough to realize they had fixed it, but it was the same kind of thing that you you can and even with the warning, you can still pick two colors of background and foreground color on an elevated shooting bug that would don’t pass that contrast standards. And looking to publish that. It will warn you but it won’t stop you. I think

The irony of that is, I’m actually dealing with a use case right now in a Gutenberg block, that is trying to replace like an animated GIF.

you can thank Aaron for that one.

we’ve got an animated GIF of an action being taken within a web app, no audio, it’s just just a purely, you know, motion based thing. And they want to replace that with an A video. Because the video is a smaller size as a consequence, because it’s properly compressed gifts are good for that very simple function. But a they don’t compress well. And they’re pretty. They’re pretty sizable. So that’s actually an issue that we’re running into right now in a discussion, I’m having a feature that they want an autoplay video, because they want it to be like an animated image and the back and forth it that is involved in that from an accessibility standpoint. Well, it doesn’t have audio. It has no audio.

so yeah, see, it’s it’s making the case for why you might want to allow that autoplay at that point, because it is just doing the thing. Another thing is doing just with a smaller file,

It’s a an argument for making the right argument for the right reason, is the kind of thing that I see there in terms of, you know, should, autoplay should not should we have the ability to do that. And people saying, Well, yeah, sometimes I want auto playing video. But if they can’t make the argument for the use case that would be accessible. It makes it hard to understand. And that’s why, you know, we get into a lot of this. And I know, the accessibility topic is something we’ve covered several times, and it gets even boring at times. And I don’t care because it needs to be something thing that we go over and consider those kinds of things and help people learn not just to think about it, but also defend it in those cases. Yeah.

trickle down.

The the analog, I think, or comparison, analog comparison. Analog bet, yeah, that’s correct. That falls there, I think is with copyright law. Because with when it comes to a civil suit under copyright law, it’s a, like Rachel, say, it’s very trickle down in terms of if you get sued, you will get sued as the business because you are the business displaying the image, if you have an image on your website that’s been copyrighted. And then if you are found liable for that copyright infringement, it is then your responsibility to turn around and go to the people that you hired as a consequence of that, and sue them. If you did, you know, if they chose that image, you know, shit runs downhill in that case, and so you can sue them for that, and try to pass that off, and and then so forth, and so on until the court says, No, you can’t hand this off anymore. It’s, you know, you are the terminal point of infringement. But there’s this sort of fall over affect that and I think, from an accessibility standpoint, I don’t know why that exact same thing wouldn’t apply. Like, if you’re sued. It’s it’s the businesses responsibility to be compliant. Yeah, it

but that’s, it’s not appreciably different from the copyright at that point. Yeah, you know, you may know a little bit more about it, just because we’ve taught, you know, you hear it in the lexicon a lot more. But legally, the application is very similar. The purpose is very similar. And so the resolution, I think, judicially would be the same thing. At that point.

yeah, once you’re sued, then you’re going to really know about it. It is,

isn’t really that different from building a brick and mortar, you know, if you hire a contractor to build your business for you, and they don’t, you know, make sure you’ve got either ramps or an LLC, or you’re building a six storey building, and you didn’t put an elevator in it. You know, whose fault is that? Once, you know, the the doors have opened? And so that, you know, that process, I think, even though there is certainly that burden that falls to the small business owners, it’s also not something that they aren’t familiar with in other aspects. Yeah,

I always come back to my dad, because he’s a shop teacher now. But he spent, you know, decades being in construction and the handyman and all that. I say handyman that really devalue the work, he kid, my dad is an amazing guy, he’s the best teacher I’ve ever met, probably bar none. And I don’t say that as a son. I say that as somebody who respects good teaching. But I always come back to the construction metaphors in the building metaphors, because it’s the idea of knowing that I can go in and if I nail some two by fours together and put a couple two by fours in the middle of my wall will stay up versus understanding why your tape measure is highlighted every 16 inches. It’s that kind of thinking that I put I think of with HTML and with web development, is there a lot of things you can do to get by that? Yeah, that will solve the problem, but aren’t correct. And there’s a lot of reasons why that’s true.

So back in October, everything hits the fan. Ryan says I’m taken off I’m done trying to push accessibility WordPress, I’m going to greener pastures that happened and caused a kerfuffle, as the words are used. Because everybody said, Oh, crap, Gutenberg inaccessible, the accessibility Rep. as it were, is leaving. And it brought a microscope down on that issue very quickly. And so that’s when Rachel WP campus stepped in and said, Hey, let us help with this process. Explain just real, you know, real quickly for me, what was sort of that inspiration? Because I, I presume that you know, this was something that had been you’ve been thinking about for a while because you guys announced this very quickly. After that happened.

said from the Netherlands, okay, apologize. Somebody was a German last name. I’m used to mispronouncing names or hearing, it’s I asked forgiveness.

Yeah, I remember that. I read it, I followed it,

you’ve all been told yourself.

I think was late October when it came out.

And if you if you aren’t following Carla groves, who is the guy who founded 10, and go check him out on Twitter, it’s just that Carl groves as just a weird irony I was I’ve been following him for some time on Twitter. So when I found out they were the ones doing the audit on top of that, it was like, Oh, that’s very interesting to see these sort of worlds colliding in that way. And his the stuff he shares is is fantastic. And yeah, there I think I certainly can’t complain about the choice of going with them by any means.

I did actually check out GitHub ahead of time. And I know that, of course, FIFO went gold. What was the end of December, I think, because everybody was up in arms about it being over Christmas.

Surprise, came in in February five to one has will have shipped by the time you’re listening to this episode. And at my rough count, like, just in the last month, over 75 tickets had been closed in just the accessibility label on GitHub. So they definitely evidently are responding to those. And kudos have to go out to those folks for seeing those things and trying to jump on them. I think that’s that’s a lot of motion to see under, you know, one header so to speak.

the so the tenant group in the review, and this is a quote I lifted straight out of the executive summary was during the technical review, tenants staff lava total of 90 issues across the 16 components tested as the data and this report will show there is an average of 18% failed check items per component with 63% of issues impacting at least three user populations. 69% of issues are medium or high severity. And finally, 53% of the issues logged in the technical report our level a success criteria. So it’s I mean, it doesn’t paint a fantastic picture. And I know the the ending of the report was tweeted around several places about how this is like a how it has I think the phrase is pervasive accessibility issues.

it’s it is but i want to i, i think it’s worth pointing out that they were complimentary of the output for the most part.

It’s like those those like fancy cars they build out of Volkswagens that looks like super cool old, like BMW from the 40s. But they’re just VW bugs underneath. The they did they tested three things, right? They were looking at how to create content, how to edit content, and how to edit the options on those things. What do you mean, like, with a block, so a block has the Options panel off to the right hand side? So could you add a class to a block, you could, depending on the block that you’re working on, maybe you can set the font size, maybe you can set the color, you know, those kind of options at that point? I want to ask a question very directly to these results. I was reading through and reading like the the sub scores, the The score is the system usability for usability score, yes. So on creating content, they gave that a 90, which is a good score. 100 is a perfect score, they are very quick to point out that it’s not a percentage based system, it’s more of a core tile kind of measurement, but a 90 fantastic score, but it had a zero percent completion rate for visually impaired people. And

that was like a weird combination of scores to me when I was reading through it. And I didn’t see it explained. And I don’t know if Rachel, if you know more about that? That’s I know, that’s a really specific question.

that the reason why this I think is important, especially from a, you know, completion percentage type of standpoint is all of these were measured against Gutenberg, as it exists now in a sort of a vanilla state. But even like, I have started getting into Gutenberg block development, now I’m building my own block. So I’m adding my own different inspector controls and things like that to the to the options. Every time somebody like me is touching that system. And either, you know, maybe I’m extending the advanced options that are available for an existing block or things like that, every one of those is sort of an area to introduce additional failure. And so the results that come out of this are maybe somewhat frightening. frightening, Lee, a little bit optimistic, I think in that way, because the plugins, you add the code you right, as a developer, any of those things may impact the overall accessibility of the platform, then from that standpoint, and that’s, that’s a tough one, I think, for a lot of people to kind of grasp on to and realize,

The big thing about the audit that came back from a problem area standpoint that I noted, like, they because they broke down, if you go check out the executive summary, they’ve got everything kind of broken up a number of ways, actually, one of the deals they were looking at where the problem areas kind of in a broad sense, between block panel, and editing, media uploading, which was a surprise to me, because me uploading and WordPress hasn’t changed for a long time. And the keyboard navigation is an obvious and clear one that we I think we all expected to see in there. But those were like the three big areas in terms of interactions that they found to be inaccessible. It’s, I think, very telling from a standpoint of how much we take for granted. point and click, quite frankly,

by the way media popped up in that list, specifically, because that was the one thing that has been there forever. And all the Gutenberg block does is just in line, the button basically that says, click this and then upload the your stuff, and then it puts you into the normal uploader. But it’s, you know, it’s like, in lined into the page as a modal at that point. So it’s a little the flow has changed, so to speak.

a couple episodes ago, we did that and included the the screen where you’re output of image, alt text as a consequence. They did though, while they don’t have like links to the actual output of that, I’ve got a dog barking in the back.

So what they did do is while they don’t have the actual audio output, we talked about that a couple episodes ago, right, where we included I forget what it was, we were going over specifically, but we had the audio output of some image alt, that were getting read out by a screen reader, and it was showing you how different applications kind of read it, you know, terribly as it were, they do have a section that is all issues by platform, while the output isn’t there. They did cover voiceover they covered dragon natural speaking, they covered ZoomText, in video, a Jaws, those things were tested, the thing that I found really surprising about that was when you look at the breakdown of the issues by technology, seven, the issues were logged that qualified as all. So the issue is applied, regardless of what you were using. Number two, was, yeah, windows with a screen reader was the the number two, it had 15. So number one is seven, the number two is 15. And it really goes to this point of when you think about accessibility, when you think about inclusive design and these concepts. It’s not about, you know, trying to compartmentalize different disabilities and and trying to treat this as a technical spec, it’s all about the technique, you apply. It’s about painting, right? When you paint and knowing how to use acrylics and and palette knives and things like that, like the technique you use to apply all of these technologies we talked about is almost artistic in nature, because you get back to that root problem that we started with the at the start of this episode forest through the trees, you’ve got so much detail that is getting so close to the issue that you lose the big picture. Yeah, they also broke it down. And this is one area where I actually, you know, find myself as a developer running into problems. When we talk about the specific accommodations, these things bring up. So 49% of the issues that were logged, fell into the area of visual related whether that’s purely blind, or just people who are visually impaired. But that’s half of all of the things. And we like that because it’s easy to think if I close my eyes, how can I do it, and that that affords and the way, you know, a developer, a 20 year old developer with great eyesight, and no color blindness, and no motor control issues, you know, with a sharp brain reading on caffeine and vodka, you know, the way they approach, web design is very perspective related. And that’s one of those big challenges that I always find I fall into is, I think about stuff like, I’ll just what if I close my eyes and think about how I use this with a keyboard. But all of these things, when you start reading about the cognitive and perceptive issues that were raised, like, okay, maybe I can get to it with a keyboard, but do I understand it, when I get there, those are really hard challenges, I think to the face and to, you know, get through at the end of this. And it’s something that Gutenberg has, I think specifically brought to the forefront because of how they nest, you know, the editor with the blocks with the inspector controls, and it creates this weird, lean, deeply nested environment that does just inherently bring with it a lot of cognitive load. And we’re not as good, we’re not good at that process.

And that’s where WordPress is sort of inherent philosophy of democratizing publication comes into play that you can’t do that, if the platform itself is including these features that limit, you know, whether you’re blind, motor, impaired, cognitive, cognitively impaired, take your pick any of those issues, limit your ability to then publish. And that’s where, when we talk about this, and I see threads on Reddit, I see, you know, posts on Facebook, whatever the case may be, with people asking the question of why should I build for that tiny, tiny percent of people who may touch my thing? That’s where I get frustrated. Because that voice and that value is worth more than the numbers tell you to me?

I’m going to put a shield over these people, and I’m going to make you to feel bad, because that just sounds fun right now. Okay, at this point, here’s the thing I’m going to put out there. And I say it’s a shield. But it’s also a warning, what you guys are referring to is a little bit of that unknown unknown. Because the way people learn a lot of the responsibility falls on you, Aaron, you Rachel, me Michael and everybody listening who gets this conversation understands the importance of it, the responsibility falls on us to make sure that we are teaching properly. Because when you are a developer who is self taught, who is learning from the ground up, and you are that person who is framing in a wall who puts their studs in every 24 inches instead of 16 inches, and you get away with it, because the wall stays up, it is hard to know those things that you you don’t realize, the you know, the load bearing weight that can be put on two by fours over the course of a run. You know, there’s a lot of that that comes into play. And so I’m I’m personally hesitant to like, go at those people real aggressively because I think a lot of it is just totally educational. And the only people who can teach it are us, I but we do teach it.

gonna, it’s just gonna be a shirt that says, I know, I just don’t care.

to folks that it’s like asking a chef to make a five star meal and put always save vegetables in front of them. That chef would walk away from that they would not build the thing they are being asked to build, because they recognize the ingredients they are being given are not adequate to accomplish that. There’s a there’s a

to wear this really hits the ground running, I think the the number that came out of the report was that 18% of the actions were completely prevented from completing tasks. That’s what in five, which most of us do more than five things, when we publish a post, they’ve got this barrier put in front of them that if they’re trying to whether that’s published media, get a video up correctly, do things that accommodate them, 18% of those people were stopped in their tracks. And out of the total number of issues that were raised with Gutenberg 63 of them were a level failures. That’s if you’re not familiar, the week egg spec is divided into a double A and triple a triple A is like the upper echelon, perfect across the board spec. Very hard to achieve that as it turns out, double A is just kind of like the you’re doing it right. If you can up comply with double A. A level certification is like when you go by the you know, the great a meat from your butcher or whatever.

But it really a level compliance is incredibly easy. And that made up 53% of the problems she sets in and found it in the audit. That’s the kind of thing where it’s like, if you were to tell me Oh, yeah, we came back we found you know, 20 issues at double A, we found 30 issues at double A, that’s okay, I get that. But 63 of the issues over half of them ours are single a level problems. And complying with that is so easy and basic. That’s where it’s like, that’s the head scratcher when I start looking at all of this data. And that’s where it does show how important it is. Go learn the specs, go read these compliance issues, because those aren’t technical things, those it’s not about just, you know, figuring out the right technology and and talking to 20 people and getting you know, an accessibility lab, you don’t need that to be a level compliant, you just need to look at the spec and know when to use the right markup at that point. I want to throw out there. This idea of a I respect everybody who makes WordPress because they are building an incredible tool that is free to everybody. And I know that the Debs that do this work are working their asses off for it. And that deserves respect. And I don’t want anything that we’ve said so far to come off as, like anything personal because it’s not it’s is absolutely not. And I know as much as anybody that sometimes you have extenuating circumstances that bear down on whether it’s a feature, release a deadline, whatever that case may be. So I want to just take my hat off to those folks, because I do think Gutenberg is the future of WordPress. I like Gutenberg. Now that I have gotten used to it, I think it works well. And I think that it will, in time be the thing that WordPress needs.

the complaints and the issues. And I know that you know, there are different folks who are very integrally involved in those things. But I just want to put that out there that I do have a lot of respect for those folks. But I want to pivot to though and kind of round this out with is why this matters if you aren’t a WordPress Dev. Because everybody’s building stuff, and maybe they’re building it in react, but not WordPress, maybe there are building it in Java, maybe they’re building it in Jekyll. You know, maybe Gatsby, as the case may be, you know, view Angular, you know, take your pick of all of these different systems, maybe they’re Python people, Hell, I don’t know,

this question, Rachel, very specifically, how do you get out in front of these things? You know, what, what is the sort of the the key nugget in terms of saying I want to build a thing? And I do want to build it right? And I understand that maybe I don’t know all of this stuff. What is their course of action? At that point? What’s their resource? Should they go just read the the week egg spec? Should they you know, look up something else entirely? What is the advice that you would give that person?

And we’ve mentioned before, like, with, you know, Chrome has, and Firefox, the accessibility scanner, the side improve, and the Yeah, there are a lot of those tools. And a lot of us also emphasize the fact that those only catch so much, you know, they can catch those markup things. And the market things are certainly a big part of that. But a lot of it is very qualitative, and just even throwing something out on Twitter and saying, hey, will somebody go use this and tell me what you think of it,

And I think that the bigger even part of that is developers need to stop looking at things, especially when it comes to accessibility very specifically, when somebody comes back and says, Hey, you know, this doesn’t, you know, I can’t use my screen reader with this, or we can’t focus this correctly, or whatever, they need to stop thinking about those issues as failures. Because I think that’s what happens is, you build something, it goes to QA, or whatever your version of QA may be. And when all of those issues start coming back, you start feeling like, these are all failure points. And it’s, it’s not those are learning experiences for you to realize, Oh, I didn’t know that, you know, the focus date on this wasn’t set, or whatever the case may be. And once you know that, it’s important to do things like set focus and hover together for a lot of things. You know, that’s just a technique issue that comes out of that experience. But too often we look at that criticism as criticism, and it’s, it’s not it’s their experience, not criticism of what you built.

what I think it comes down to is, we are critical. We are incredibly critical. My god, I am critical of things that I wrote myself to four or five, 710 years ago, wait, at

developers are critical, the web is forgiving, and users are incredibly forgiving. All they want is accommodation. And if they find something that impedes them, all they’re looking for is acknowledgement that that will be accommodated. And if it is, then they are the happiest people in the planet. We are the ones who create that critical nature. And we are the ones who put pressure on ourselves and act like it’s a big deal. And even it sounds like it’s a it’s the worst, I complained to mint. I don’t know if any other US meant for like finance monitoring. I bitched at them earlier today, because they are still using flash to do data visualization on some of their their trend graphs. If they would just change it, they would find out that I am thrilled and happy and completely and totally resolved at that point. Yeah, my tweet was maybe a little rude, and maybe even antagonistic. But I’m accommodated. And then I’m done. And I’m happy. And I’m often and on to other things. And that’s really what this all comes down to. And it’s we put pressure on ourselves. And we read that, that meaning in the things that sometimes isn’t there and just listen to your users. I think that’s the best point to leave folks with. And, and to

The big part of that I think comes down to this idea to that. Just because you hear their complaint doesn’t mean it’s their first. And it doesn’t mean that it’s their first with, you know, you necessarily they may have ran into the same problem. 20 times 20 other places before they got to your site or your tool. And you’re just the point at which they finally felt like nobody is hearing my concern. Yeah. And that’s where some of that frustration also leaks out. I think and that’s another reason why it’s so important to not take it personally. Because it may be directed at you. But that’s only because they are so used to being not heard on this platform.

Yeah, or or everybody for you. Yeah.

Folks, kick back, take yourself a quick break. We’re going to take a break ourselves and come back here in about a minute and we will get you out of here. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned in 6564 6350 to

The drunken UX podcast is brought to you by our friends at New cloud. New cloud is an industry leading interactive map provider who has been building location based solutions for organizations for a decade. Are you trying to find a simple solution to provide your users with an interactive map of your school city or business? Well, new clouds interactive map platform gives you the power to make and edit a custom interactive map in just minutes. They have a team of professional cartographers who specialize in map illustrations of many different styles, and already did this design and artistic rendering to fit your exact needs. One map serves all of your users devices with responsive maps that are designed to scale and blend in seamlessly with your existing website. To request a demonstration or to view their portfolio, visit them online at New cloud.com slash drunken UX that’s in view cloud.com slash drunken UX. Rachel thanks for taking your time this evening and sit down with us I know it’s been long I know that there were breaks that were taken that folks listening at home will never know about because I’m trying to not take a tornado to the face at this exact second. It’s a little spooky outside I’m not gonna lie. I ran down to the basement one point in time.

there? What isn’t it the story from Twister where you like walks out in the throws like a bottle of bourbon at the the tornado and it goes away? I mean, there is no better story of my life quite frankly, at this

Yeah, well, I am I am more than well armed at least the that was that’s the thing like a tornado hits. I’m good because I’m like a rag doll. You know, I’m gonna get bounced around. And I’m I’ve had enough scotch tonight that I’ll just land fine. Rachel, take a second though, before we get out of here because I want folks to know where you’re going to be what you got going on where they can find you all of those things. take a couple minutes and share that with everybody.

good crowd gonna be there as it turns out the list here the other day and I was surprised by how big it is.

Yeah, so

Folks, if you want to find us, check us out on Twitter or Facebook /drunkenux or on the Instagrams. We post the Insta giggles there at /drunkenuxpodcast. All the things are going on all I’ll share some stuff from the accessibility summit. While we’re there. I’m taking my mobile recording kit with me. Maybe I’ll sit down and talk to some folks at that point. We’ll see. I know everybody’s busy it happens. And in all of that nonsense and all of the stuff going on around your head in all the noise and all the work and all the fun. For one thing and the one thing I can leave you with is to keep your personas close but your users closer bye.