#88: Understanding the Value of UX Research w/ Varun Murugesan

it’s it’s nice.

It’s it’s really

or who are close but no cigar. Vanna White do not press that letter for this man here. Earth writer Brewery, North tower stout, excited to be here. I know because of covid no one has been able to go out and get talked to anybody. So this is a great way to get a little bear in, get a little conversation except to chat with you guys and really take that baby’s first step into UX research.

the 1950s.

six years. You’ve only got 88 episodes.

me

Have to that it’s kind of like you couldn’t have autism in like the 1800s because that wasn’t the thing that we labeled right. People were thinking about user experience even early on, right, putting a button in a place where you could click it or even notice it. We just didn’t maybe have that title as user experience up until later.

So to me that dynamic that shift Kids getting out and get diagnosed with autism, but maybe in the 1800s 1500s, you don’t have that thing. So we just kind of label them with something else. So

That wealth of information though, that’s what actually stops a lot of discipline getting out. And I think about this as a researcher now. Good research. If you do it well it’s proprietary knowledge, it gives you a cutting edge. So if you’re giving out this information you actually give them a leg up in that sense. So you don’t see a lot of this evolution because it is sitting at the desk, long nights, dark rooms.

I’m sitting with the data and then Eureka, if you put enough time to it, you get a little breakthrough moment, then your VP takes it and then they’re like, this is product strategy, this is important. We’re going to develop and design a whole new innovation, a differentiation out of this. But that does not get out or if it does get out a lot of us people talk about why would just copy paste it? You don’t know what led to this finding or this design.

So you don’t want to just absorb and copy paste the good alongside the bed.

thing, what is designed to tell you specifically geared around the questions that you ask. That’s a more esoteric type answer. But what I tell the stakeholders all the way up to the C suite, all the way down to a designer that needs to maybe pixel push is good research as two things. Number one, it helps you identify bad ideas Early on in the process and the # two, it helps you kill that ideas faster. A lot of research at least at scale.

Is there on testing, right? Usability testing, testing, test it, put it in front of somebody, see what they do. That’s a great way to kill that ideas. But if you think about it that way you spent all of this time may be running down the wrong road, you’ve built all these prototypes. Maybe you have a new designer developer that fell in love with that kind of bad design and then you come out and you test it and you find out that zero out of 15 people can use it.

A negative one out of 15 people actually found it reasonable or valuable. Right? You can kill that ideas. But earlier on, good research is about finding and identifying bad ideas as early as possible. One of the things that tell stakeholders is if you do a good research early on, it starts to become part of the company’s folklore, what is true by the people that you’re building for?

So you start to recognize if you’re trying to build, if your company builds products for people that have difficulties with vision, you probably wouldn’t try to sell them three D glasses, right? If you have done a little bit of research early on, maybe they’re much more interested in premium wireless audio for really immersive movie type sound, that might be something that you learned earlier on and even you stop your entire production around um, three D glasses.

That’s a very archaic example. But if you do research early, you start to recognize that these are the directions that you don’t want to go. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we should be moving forward in this direction. That’s where people, like developers, designers, other smart people in the room can recognize to align our business strategy and the people that were trying to help for these are some possible ways.

Let’s go ahead and build something. Let’s test it. Let’s see if we can iterate from there

To me, not necessarily the best way to go about it, simply because it needs. And there’s so many context, there’s different context that you want to keep in mind. And I think personas, what has happened, and I’ve seen it happen is it gets easy to say, well, we’ve got a persona. Why the fact that we tested, What do we gain from it? We spent all this time and money to make a nice little chart. Look at, look at chad, he makes $30,000 a year.

He drives a Subaru and he’s got pink hair. And then I think about does that actually help you make a decision if you need to know if the menu should be left to right? Because that help you figure out what your go to market strategy is. Does it really short answer is no long answer is it gets you actually further away from the people you’re building for.

Because any sort of research, if you talk to any researcher on the planet that will eventually come to an idea that I call shelf life personas have a very short shelf life simply because everything around everybody changes all the time. You actually spend more energy and on to build a reasonable persona that he spent maybe two weeks coming up with fun names, chad, timothy, brad butter knife, susie salad for it, and by the time you actually want to use it to make decisions, that persona is outdated.

Whereas if you did shorter, maybe frequent qualitative studies and actually get out into the field and watch people use what you’re building that knowledge consistently just refreshes. Right? So personas there is it is split. I’ve seen some people do them. Well, I lean in the camp of that’s not necessarily the best way to do it. You don’t necessarily want to abstract people.

You can get closer to the nitty gritty to the details. That’s where the best earnings come from, because then your stakeholders like why can’t he click the button?

okay, I see that. Right. That’s where the empathy comes. That’s where the really fun part of research comes is being wrong and being excited about being wrong

if I can add one thing to that though, what I’ve seen happen is if the more you invest in personas were talking all the way the whole nine yards, you’re making posters, you’re communicating them effectively. When you’re making decisions, you’re asking yourself what would susie salad fork do? And this is during this moment it becomes easier to not try other kinds of research.

You actually become sticky and people become less more resistant to change, right? Because somebody sold somebody to make personas and now you’re saying that might be outdated, maybe this is the wrong way to do it. And then what happens with personas that if your product changes fundamentally, you do it in the startup space, The pivot, your persona probably doesn’t capture the data, the variables that you really know you now need.

We’re not making wheelchairs were making skateboards. Well now it’s a different entire set of demographics and people you want to understand. So it’s the selling of personas that can be challenging as well.

And it’s It’s not that it’s not helpful, but when it comes down to it, I have never seen, I’m not 1000 years old. So I can’t say I’ve been doing this for that long, but I’ve never seen a designer say, yeah, we should go this direction or that direction and then be able to attribute it back to a persona. What I have seen as people say, we ran some survey research, we learned X, Y and Z. That’s why we went this way.

We did some interviews and that one quote really put everything a cool part of research is the outlier or the anomaly as we sometimes call it. Which is a weird way of thinking about people. But the thing that stands out might be the one quote or the one moment that puts everything else into perspective, right? Of course. He said this boom, Everything else becomes a bit more clear. A persona by definition is a generalization.

It is supposed to take a bunch of variance and then abstracted down into something clean, something simple. Everybody has the same variables, right age, gender, what type of car you drive or how proficient in our technology. You miss out on the variability you miss out and you reduce the dimensionality and complexity people have.

It’s like, I don’t know like a fundamentally what I think about at least what we think about apple banana is is any of this data legitimately going to steer us in the right direction or make it easier for us to identify bad directions. And more often than not, we measure very few things and we have found the trial generation, the less you measure and the more confident we are, what we’re measuring, we make better decisions.

necessarily tell you that it’s a bad idea. It’s the person that you’re building for If you have launched something, so a great place to start this population, especially if you’ve never done research. Let’s go to your stakeholder. The person that you really want to champion and challenge them to do research is ask them one of the last time you got something wrong, there’s not a single stakeholder on this planet that has been 100 accurate in their predictions.

There is some idea that they had in the shower on the way here, uh in the in the fruit aisle at whole foods that they’re like, Eureka, I got it and they wanted to go put that out into the world and their entire market said, no, right, that will sting, that will sit with you in that moment. Let’s draw on those emotions, let’s be uncomfortable together. Let’s go and do a little bit of interview and a great way to.

Then pivot on top of that is what do we not want to be wrong about moving forward? That it’s OK being wrong? And that’s where a lot of innovation product differentiation can happen because you challenge your assumptions and you went out and said, hey, maybe the thing that we’re building isn’t for us and it’s for somebody else. And then that’s where a lot of exploration and cool things to start happening.

One of my favorite things, especially with senior stakeholders, the people that are the most resistant, right? The stubborn stegosaurus in the room as a stakeholder. One of my favorite place to pitch research even before is I sit down and have a frank conversation and I say, here’s what’s going to happen with research and typically you don’t want to predict what’s going to happen to research because if you know what’s going to happen, why go on researching, right?

Go get some new knowledge, I can change the way. But here’s what I say, two things are gonna happen as a result of this research. Number one, you’re going to be right, you have amazing product intuition that’s got to feel so good that you have a pulse on the people that are trying to build for. You are seeing something in these metrics in this industry that nobody else is hot. Damn. That’s gotta feel amazing to be right.

Or the second thing is you’re going to get smarter, you’re gonna be able to avoid obstacles. You’re gonna be able to duck dip, dive, duck dive and dodge or whatever All over some of those issues. And that’s Gotta feel good too, because then when you go out and you talk to your leader and you’re telling them, here’s the vision around it. You know, 10 different things and you can say, Hey, there’s actually a path to product success within here.

If you pull that thread even further, it doesn’t take a lot to figure out what people hate. We’ll all walk around saying I hate this. I hate traffic. I hate ads. I hate paying for things. We all know that it’s much more difficult. And I think that’s where researchers and design designers start to intersect and really build powerful relationships is what do people like? Right. Like, Oh, I don’t like that menu, it’s too crowded.

What level of menu can be crowded enough for you to find value for it to be interesting for to be visually esthetically pleasing.

Right, That’s so much more difficult. And I think good research into design can come out to do a lot of stakeholders, especially in research, immature companies, where it’s maybe some party just trying a little bit of testing every now and then a lot of stakeholders walk in and walk out of research sessions expecting, boom, this is what we’re doing, this is the research, this is exactly what we’re gonna do is guaranteed success.

And I think it’s fundamentally the wrong way of looking at it. It is a process of learning the process of research that helps stakeholders make sense of the world around them and the people that they’re building for. And then then if you empower your stakeholders, your product, people, your marketers, that’s where they get the coolest ideas.

If you think if you think about an e commerce, right, trust between sellers and within the platform, that’s huge, you’d want to make sure that I can actually trust uh this person out in Wyoming that’s going to sell me this part right, That they have to build that into it. But going back to what you said, can we measure Trust? My first question I ask every stakeholder is what happens when we’re wrap up the research? What’s your game plan? Right?

We measure trust, we got something, what are you gonna do now if your answer is a big fat zero and I’m better suited doing research on something else. Something that actually move the needle forward. There’s a lot of good interesting research questions. Um, would it be interesting to know that 99 of drunken us podcast listeners love blue dinosaurs. Shit.

Oh my God, How do you know that thing we didn’t publish? That’s so interesting. It’s so interesting. Here’s a fall question. Is that going to fundamentally change how this podcast is right?

hesitated. Okay. You guys hesitated. That made me

where we should have done research. You should call me earlier.

here’s the thing you could technically yes, you can rebrand into the blue dinosaur drunken UX podcast but that’s a mouthful and this is why we drink. That’s neither here nor there. But here’s what I think is interesting if you work at a toy manufacturer that made dinosaur toys, That 99 finding is incredibly powerful because you now know to increase production of blue dinosaur toys and maybe to understand the market that like 99 that likes that blue dinosaurs, Right?

And I understand why Hasbro pumping out blue dinosaurs. Maybe they did some great research. It’s the context that matters, right? Keep coming back to context. I can do research on pretty much anything, but not the world’s greatest research or the cheapest or the fastest I can get you findings on pretty much anything I can come up with something. Is that going to change how you do things here?

Is that fundamentally going to change and help somebody that you’re trying to help. If not, Let’s use our let’s use our research resources much more appropriately. If you think about a typical study and this, I’m using the word typical very abstractly. Let’s say it takes you three weeks to run a full study done really well. We’re actually challenges and helps you build better and faster. The first week you figure out what you’re going to study.

Maybe write down your interview questions and figure out who you want to talk to. The next week heads down, You’re talking to participants collecting quotes here is watching them interact with the product or whatever. Maybe start your analysis third and final week, wrap up your analysis and maybe make a short little power point or email report whatever. Three weeks start to finish you present to your team.

If you abstract that out, there’s 52 weeks in a year, that means if it takes you three weeks to run a single study that’s meaningful and valuable, You can only run 17 studies per year. That is assuming that you start and end the next study as soon as you’re done with your presentation you about face. And he jumped at the next one that discounts holidays, that discount sick days, that discounts your stakeholder, taking up two weeks to go to Cancun, right all of that.

So man, you hold that down, you probably have between 12-14 really good studies per year. And you’re asking me to go understand if people like blue dinosaurs when you frame it like that, you can start to recognize some questions, some studies we really want to run towards and some, we’re going to steer right clear.

50 baby. Yeah, let’s get a beer

Stakeholders one Question every month and it is found, I found to be successful at small companies and big companies. It’s, what do you want to learn this month that you can use next month? It sets everybody up to win. It tells me that, hey, that survey, we’re going to use that next month to avoid or move faster on something else. Usability testing is possibly the lowest rung on that because you can see no one can find it. No one can click it.

It clearly didn’t work on the network. That’s good. But then you jump back into shelf life the minute you change that button to red to blue, that research is outdated, you cannot use it and nor should you for additional kind of design and product about moving forward. If you did big scale strategic research on what is the future of remote health care look like there’s a good chance you’re gonna learn a ton that can influence a lot of years coming down the line.

time is, I don’t think is the biggest constraint. I think it’s finding people that are within your market, that you’re trying to understand, that is a bigger issue. So if you can find somebody that you want to be talking to, right, if you’re building an app for skateboarders and you can find 10 skateboarders, go ahead and do it quickly, do it early.

Do it, meet with me right down maybe some questions and think about how you can analyze that data, interpret it. That’s great. If it takes you forever to find participants, then time becomes an issue. It’s not about methods, it’s not about surveys or quantitative versus qualitative. It’s I have the most amazing set of questions I have a big fat zero of people to talk to. So they’re just sitting dead in the water.

So even three hours of just talking to someone that you’re trying to help can be meaningful. It doesn’t have to be three months, right? I think there’s a big issue, especially from academic research. They spend six months dwindling on one question. Whereas in real life, some of the studies I’ve done, I’ve ran an entire study in six hours. Why? Because I had enough support and I can find people that I needed to talk to very quickly.

If you can talk to somebody this afternoon and you can use that day to the next day, Do that because you will learn 10,000 things really quickly. The second one, if you are in a corporate type environment, it’s when you’re looking at a requirement or some sort of user story and then when you’re going to actually write some code that you’re finding yourself being in an ambiguous situation, what do they mean by that?

I could do it this way or I could do it that way. That might be another way to talk to a handful of people to get more clarity. Not your stakeholder, but the person that you’re building for, so time is one way of looking at it. But if you have a reliable way of getting in front of people, you can go so much faster, you can run way more studies in that 17 number per year.

I mean, I don’t think it’s binary. I think there’s more abstract. This is how, you know, I’m a researcher. I’m not gonna be like f No, Here’s what I will say. I think that research is foundational. I think it is important what he says though for that 80%. I think about in terms of effect size in psychological research, we talk a lot about effect sizes, which is essentially the relationship between variables.

For example, I would probably have to talk to maybe 56 people to figure out a relationship and a pretty strong one of height and weight, meaning the next person’s height. I could probably use to estimate their weight pretty reliably right, because that’s a very obvious pattern. But if I could only measure somebody’s height and the number of lines on their palm, it’s gonna be very difficult for me to make any sort of prediction meaningful.

So when you’re looking at the 80% those people are probably going to capture your biggest issues. There’s no back button, there’s no save button, There’s a safe and a confirm button, those kinds of issues. Whereas if you think about your power user, your new user, they’re probably you’re probably not going to find those more hidden issues, those smaller effect sizes with just fact.

Yes, sir, a lot of people ask me how many people, how many people do I talk to? I don’t know, like tell me more about what you’re trying to do, Tell me more about who you’re trying to help. Tell me about the product and what’s important to the person. I think a lot of those questions can change who you talk to and how quickly you can access the most folks.

I’m gonna give you some free consulting. The first thing I’d ask you is figure out what are you willing to change if you are a smaller team? You tend to have less bandwidth if you’re doing this on the side, you got a full time job, you got a wife and kids and you got this close up magic that you really like to practice. What are you willing to change?

You want to change the tight? Are you willing to change the layout where you want to actually support the entire application and put them in the app store? So what is your kind of friction point? What is you going, what are you going to change? And then you can start to structure research and then if you actually start to some people and maybe you ask people at the end of this podcast, drop a link to a calendar late Hey, sign up for 20 minutes with the two hosts to get a conversation going.

Or one of the things that I like to think about is incentivizing and attracting different kind of people. Maybe they don’t want to talk to you, Maybe they’re introverts, maybe they’re developers and they love the content. They don’t want to go that deep in the conversation and schedule that time. Can you say, Hey, send us a voice memo, our voice mail to this email and tell us about what is it like listening and asking some of those questions.

There’s numerous ways to collect that data, but at the end of the day, you still have to take action on it. So what are you willing to change within that dataset? And that will change the way that you kind of structure your research. You’ll ask less questions if you’re not going to change the name of the podcast, right. Would that be something you go out to study? Probably not.

But if you are willing to optimize the landing page to be more seamless or get them to sign up for maybe a Patreon account or sign up for your email wait list or whatever. Maybe those were fun times that maybe those are the questions that you’re actually going to try to ask. So what are you going to change? And that will definitely influence what kind of questions you ask? Not the most best answer answer, but for free consulting it’s not, it’s a good one.

that too. Use that at best buy. And what happened was if I can add a little anecdote, a little storytime here, please pandemic happened. And I pivoted onto a new team and my team is focusing on the in home services. So how do we deliver? How do we install repair, get things to you? And that was an entirely new team and that was an entirely new context.

Right in the home, in this truck, getting in there, they’re stuck in traffic and I was asked to kind of do some foundational research of like how do we build a baseline of knowledge, how to build on top of it? How do you validate some of the things that you know, and some of the things that we know that just aren’t true and I was stuck with, How do I do field research in a remote only work environment?

Ah employees are super fantastic and they’re so, they’re so inundated with a whole lot of service calls, how do I get ahead of them and how do I not slow them down? Right? Hey take time to do an hour long interview. And so what I did was I took my team’s account because ever now has a team’s account and I set up my call whenever you call me and we’ll go straight to voicemail and I left exactly a three second message.

This is a maroon, leave your message if your in home agent by hang up and I just train them over time. But whenever you have an issue, whenever you just want to talk about your day, you want to tell me a small detail that someone might not see in one of those dashboard here on those metrics you were told the room and burn would sit there and listen to it.

And what happened was In three days I got over three hours worth of data of voice and you’ll be surprised how much data, how much richness and how much detail someone can pack into a 32nd sound bite. And a lot of these employees are telling me that they were starting to some of them one employee specific like this is like therapy.

Now I’m excited when there’s an issue because I know I’m gonna leave a voicemail about it right after and that touched me and my stakeholders. They were skeptical. They’re like voicemails. What what what are you doing with voicemails?

And I showed them this data, I let them listen to it and let them listen to the transcripts and I built this entire report out and there are like there’s something here. So now I always have my, if you call me on teams set to go to voicemail and I’m just ready for that kind of data

one is kind of going back to that voice mail that I think scales nicely to anything. I don’t think good researchers should be, um, kind of limited by the tools that you have access to. Some of the big name companies have million dollar budgets that yes, they can throw their money at a lot of different tools and use them.

I think if you’re crafty, I think that is so much more effective in terms of getting environment people during Covid, I think you learned from a very different set of person. Now, Covid and some for some people has completely drastically changed their lives for the worst. They’re much harder. They’re struggling with income or anything like that. And for some people and I’m in maybe the other side, Covid hasn’t necessarily changed my life too poorly.

What I think about that from a research perspective is that maybe now you can attract and learn from different kinds of people that are struggling that you can get in front of them, even a phone call, even a google meet or a zoom can be powerful. I don’t think the best fancy tools are going to get you into the home, help you understand what the context is for someone that you’re building for. So I don’t think I answered your question.

Can you ask you ask your question?

I’m going to be just not very exciting. I try to use the tools that I have better yet. I try to use as little tools as possible because then I can optimize what I use them for. What I have noticed though, being able to do things remotely, I’m able to interact with a different portion of the population that I might not have otherwise.

For example, if you don’t live close to where I live, where I’m testing or I’m running research, guess what I won’t hear from you, wow, look now, I can just do a video call, you can show up whenever you need to. That’s awesome. I’m learning from you, your voice has been heard and we’re having a meaningful participant experience. The other

I think people are the same. I think just one shade of weird, great.

then then then on the other side, what you see is maybe I’m nervous to participate, maybe I don’t want to come in and be grilled with all these types of questions. Maybe I am more introverted now, I could do something remote and I can learn from a different set of people. I think this remote working environment opens up different people to participate. And I think being in context and some reasons, yes, it is the right thing.

If you’re building high tech machinery on the supply chain, uh, in a supply chain factory, you probably want to be there. Because I don’t think people can bring large pieces of machinery home to work from home. I could be wrong. Last time I checked, you can’t take a giant multimillion dollar shorter home.

That was me, that was Mardi Gras 2000

The tools is the wrong way of looking at it. One idea I think about is the best basketball player. isn’t the one with the most shoes, right? The best engineer isn’t the one that can use the most A. P. I. S. Right? It changes the way you look at it. Can you use the tools that you have and can you optimize them in the right way? Once you start to recognize what tools are working then you can start to mix and match with limited changes.

I don’t think adding more and more user usability testing tools and survey platforms leads to better research. It’s when you understand what your goals are. They can understand how you want to use certain tools. If you don’t need to be in the home, guess what? You don’t need to be in the home. If you don’t have a travel budget, if people can’t get to where you need to get them, you’re not actually better served by going into the home. So I think there’s pros and cons

I think that’s a great place to start. Can you take a finding, where can you take something that everyone is a company knows? Yes, people do blank and blank. Can you go out and validate that even through the process of validating people don’t like X, y, Z functional design, you’re still going to learn, have learned something, you’re going to deepen that knowledge and find a whole new set of questions to kind of go ahead and tackle.

I think I think talking about confidence is powerful because once you do one study and one and even one stakeholders, half a light bulb moment, what that does is that reinforces that maybe we should go ahead and do this again. I think about good research and even at a small company, even if it’s just figuring out if people like red or blue on some sort of design what that serves as a benchmark for future relationships, I can build on top of that.

Remember last year when we did that really quick piece of research and we learned those two things. What if we did that a little bit different this year can be built on top of that, wow, we’re actually building and adding to the knowledge that we have and we’re learning to refine that over time. I think confidence is very powerful word and a lot of junior researchers or if you are a team of zero or a team of one, that’s a tough place to be.

But at the end of the day, you will have to reach at some point good researchers in the fall out of the sky. You will have to invest. But it’s having these conversations being uncomfortable thinking about how you’re actually going to use this data and recognizing do we want to burn one of our limited research opportunities on this interesting question, knowing that we’re missing out on more valuable

product innovation, wow. You can react and learn with them if they change consistently, your product should be changing and you might be attracting an entirely new set of target consumers that you can build cool stuff for instead of just saying they like blues who are going to do everything. Blue.

why that is a flavor.

I mean, I think Oreos doing too much. That’s my two cents. I don’t need like mexican hot chocolate flavored oreo or like a chicken teriyaki oreo flavor. Like I get your market research validated that somebody might buy this. I think you’re doing too much.

no, first off, this is awesome. I really appreciate getting a chance to sit down and go deep. Some other podcasts I’ve been on, we keep it high level, which is important, right? That makes it more accessible. But I like being able to go deeper into the weeds and hopefully your audience, your listeners were like, hey, this is nice. We’re hearing stuff that you might not see in a list. Ical top 10. That’s research. We go to

That’s too much. That’s too high brow.

Apple and banana is uh you X brand that we’re building right now. We’re currently working on our book we wanted out later in the summer. I am trying to have a full time job. I just got a puppy. We just turned a year old were training him. I have friends and family and relationship and trying to work out and try to find meaning as the world slowly descends into chaos.

But we are writing the book and then also supporting a blog at the same time. Fun fact in pro tip. Don’t do two things when you have no time. Don’t think about supporting a blog and writing action meaningful content. Not just list tickles and actually trying to work on a meaningful facebook.

barely? I try to do half a thing if I can’t. That’s where I’m trying to get to. Uh huh. But no, the book is going well. We have a lot of feedback coming in. People are very excited about what’s happening, which is fantastic. They’re actually building something meaningful. If you look at our site Apple and banana dot org, you will be hard pressed to find a single picture of my face simply because we don’t want it to be about marketing and sales.

What we want is to you to focus on the content and feel like anyone can do great research because fundamentally that is what we believe. And one day after we’re done with the book later this summer, really interested in identifying new needs around the research and the U. S. Community. And a lot of people have been talking with us about community how they don’t feel like they have a group of people that they connect with.

And then we’re also interested in something like this audio video type content where it a little bit more engaging than just maybe something passive as reading dry text on a page. Fun fact we’re not dry. You should check out illustrations because we invest heavily into our visual design. That’s the cute

to check it out. Well you checked it out but maybe your list haven’t. So

100%. Yeah. I think research at the end of the day, I think it’s really creative. I think it’s really fun. I think you murder but don’t think that should be a barrier. If anything it should teach you where you want to focus your efforts. Maybe like qualitative versus quantitative, something like that. I think you should get excited about going out and being wrong and having been and being okay with that. That’s what we’re trying to do. What happened banana.

Do you do something after though? Just being wrong is not that great. But if you’re wrong and you learn from

But I mean if it did

was free at junkanoo X