Hey, everybody, welcome to the Drunken UX podcast. You’re listening to episode number 101. This is design advice for developers and I am your host, Michael Fienen.

I was the one who was pre gaming before this. So are you okay, Sir?

I was pre gaming. I’m not gonna lie. I’m taking this episode to heart as far as drunken UX goes. So we’ll have some fun with this. Hey, welcome to the end of the the end of the season. We got three more episodes coming up after this. We hope you’re enjoying the show. Keep tuned in. And I I don’t know.

I do have backers. That is because we are super awesome at what we do. I want to give a shout out to Lance Romanov and Brendan sparks. You guys are awesome. Thanks for backing the show and helping make everything possible. That is money that is going towards our automated transcripts. Right now. If you look at our Patreon, we do have several goals set up there. The first one getting to our benchmark for the automated transcripts and then working towards our eventual goal of getting fully manual transcript is edited by an actual human who knows what words mean. opposed to a machine,

The new transcripts are already better. So I’m happy with that as it is and we will continue to make improvements. So yes, if you’re enjoying the show, if you’re excited about what we’re doing and you want to help us at all, you can donate whatever you’re comfortable with, whether that’s $1 Whether that’s $5 Whether that’s $20 You know, I don’t set rules on that and Patreon lets you put in whatever number you want to so go do that.

If you do it, let me be clear that you get special stuff one of those special things is extended interviews we will be pushing one of those out every couple of weeks that go back through not just season four but I think the end of season three I forget that it was episode 79 I think was the first one and we’ll be releasing extended cuts of all of our interviews from episodes from that point up until current at which point we will start releasing them in time with current episodes obviously that we will eventually catch up with with ourselves there and then there will also be other things you get stickers and coasters and things like that for backing us and we will be adding additional stuff as things change.

Aaron my boy yeah. Oh you didn’t you said you didn’t pregame but I know you didn’t have a drink over there. So what do we what do we got?

I I’m I’m going through my shell with some of my new stuff and I’m I broke out tonight the Glenmorangie next door. This is one of my favorite scotches. This is a glenmoor genie in the bottle. Let me see the bottle. There’s nothing real fancy about the ball. It’s a plain old Glenmorangie bottle for the most part. Glen Glenmorangie is a highland Scotch so you get that sort of like grassy sort of bass note to it. It is the nectar Dior is finished in salt turn casks so I’ll turn wine and it gives it sort of this really bright, like white grape. I want to use the word sparkle but sparkle isn’t the flavor.

But there’s there is this sort of distinct like sweet wine layer to it like if you if you had like a Scotto type of wine or something like that. Like there’s a very bright note that sits on top of this that is very sweet and very crunchy a toffee. Very, like crunchy toffee type of brightness on top of it. Easily one of my favorite scotches. I like Glenmorangie anyway, I love their high end stuff. I love the 18. I love the Cygnet. I love their standard 10. The Nectar Dior is one of three that they do that is out of a one of them’s the La Santa. And I can’t remember the other one off the top my head, but they’re all like specialty like they’re done 10 years standard.

And then they finished two years in different types of wine casks. Tonight, absolutely want to one we’re talking about design advice for developers. Now, what we are talking about is literally like, I am a developer, and maybe I’m an army of one. Or maybe I work somewhere that just doesn’t have a design department. And I’ve been asked to build a site and make it look nice. And I got hired to code. I don’t know how to do this. I do want to give credit to those that came before us. West boss over at syntax, they did a great episode on this. It was episode number 68. If you want to go back and listen to theirs as well, it was designed tips for designers was their episode.

And of course they are out of this world knowledgeable on all of this stuff. So by all means, if you like what we have to say go listen to their show and love what they have to say. And then come back and listen us some more. And then come back and listen to some more. Yeah, because we’re fun. We’re fun and flirty with each other via cues. i I want to talk about this, especially from my where I’m sitting my standpoint, my point. Because I have joked so many times about how I’m not a designer, I’m a bad designer, I’m a coder, I write stuff. I like code. And but yet I build sites and I build sites for myself. And so you know, how do I solve those problems? How do I how do I get into that?

you, let’s be fair, right? Like you’re a Ruby developer, you consider yourself a back end developer? Yes,

I was I remember cork Express from college.

Yeah, so I like the fact that you mentioned like accessibility, right? Because when I think about things like design, I don’t think about stuff like accessibility, because accessibility just tells me what to do. It gives me a spec. Basically, now we’ve talked about how accessibility is not a checklist, and all of that, but even the stuff that’s subjective about accessibility is still stuff that, hey, it’s telling me what to do. So as long as I do what it’s telling me, um, I can work with that.

at the end. So I work very well with that. Like, I love having like just a thing that says, here’s the things to practice and how you figure it out, and how you know, if you’re compliant and all of this. I have built over my life mini sites, let’s, let’s say, I, however, do not have your background, I am not an art person at all. My wife is an art person. And we’ve had many conversations about how I have no aesthetic sense of like looking at a painting and I can respect like, I can look at a good painting and say that’s a good painting. Right? And then I can look at a famous painting. I’m gonna phrase it that way and say that’s garbage. Because I can’t do that.

Like yeah, like I don’t I don’t get it. I don’t think that way. I don’t think abstractly. I’m good at photography. I like the idea of like, visual composition in the moment for some reason I’m okay at. Yeah, but only through a lens. Sure, because there’s something very yeah, there’s something very concrete about photography. I’m taking a real picture of her real thing, right? And so it’s giving me a baseline to operate from once I’m ready to edit. We’ll talk about that actual concept here. As far as it applies to web design here in a bit.

Can I say yes, but yes. Can I start with a story? Let’s start with an allegory of sorts of the farmer and the chef. The farmer goes out day and night plows, the fields, plants, the seeds, weeds, the the rose, harvests the grain, packs it up, ships it off, he knows his trade. Well, he grows bountiful harvests every year, of all kinds of fruits and vegetables and grains, and then and manner and sort. The chef walks into his kitchen every day, and purchases, all kinds of the finest food all all across the seas. And they know all the different ways to cut and cook and arrange and plate and present this food to people and one is not the other.

But the chef deals directly with the things the farmer grows, and the farmer consumes things that the chef may cook. There they both deal in food at the end of the day, they’re both in the food game, right? The farmer may not be a good cook, though. And the chef may not be able to grow anything. But the difference? Is that what you just said, right? Yeah, so a chef might not be able to go out and plow a field and plant acres upon acres of a crop. But we could probably teach the chef how to grow a window garden with some herbs. And the farmer while the farmer may not be able to produce a molecular guests, gastronomic creation of your lore.

But I bet we can teach them how to make a decent steak and potatoes. Like, there, there is an overlap of gray area where both are capable of operating without deep knowledge of the others territory. And what really differs is the ceiling each has for the others area of expertise,

But just because you asked them to change seats, doesn’t mean they can change their passion? Sure. Oh, that too. Yeah. Because that matters. being passionate about something can dramatically affect your ability to learn, retain and execute on certain things. If you aren’t passionate about football, and you sit down to watch a chiefs game with me, I can I can teach you every rule of that game and explain everything that’s going on and all the things and that’s not going to make you care and you’re not going to next week, you’re going to sit down with me again. And I’m going to tell you the same stuff over because you’re not going to retain and Abel didn’t matter to you.

And then what I what I hope you get from this conversation is sort of this idea of Yeah, that’s not my thing. I don’t love it. But I need to be able to At least execute in that gray area, I need to be able to cook my steak and potatoes, I need to be able to grow the window box. And that doesn’t take a lot of effort. And there are a lot of, let’s call them. I don’t want to call them shortcuts. But they are kind of shortcuts. They’re crutches that’s maybe let’s use that word they’re crushes that will help you and you can lean on them.

And there’s nothing wrong with that everybody leans on those crutches. There are three areas that really come to mind for me, the first of which is colors. And picking a color palette for most people usually happens pretty early in their process and thinking about, you know, what are your brand’s colors? What are your products, colors? What colors evoke the emotions that you want to evoke? certain colors mean certain things?

throw, throw a dart and see how it lands. And that’s fine too. Like if you if you’re working on something that sort of a blank slate. And you have the opportunity to just pick colors, because you don’t have anything to go off of like, if you’re building something like if you’re working somewhere that sells a product, you can always steal colors from the product, as you know, an inspiration or something like that. But if you’re trying to come up with like a palette, because frequently, even if you’re using something as a basis for a color, you may need accent colors and background colors and things like that, to help augment this.

Putting that palette together can be kind of a pain in the butt. There are two tools I’m going to throw out here at you that I really like for this that work well for me and help aid in this process. One is colorbox.io, which is a very straightforward tool. You go there, it’s got a deal where you can add colors to a pallet, and they will build out things like color ramps for you.

So a color ramp is something where like if I picked, you know, blue, like a good strong blue, what it would do is give me ratios of that blue as a and I may get this wrong, I believe right? Is it the luminance, I think is the right technical phrase for the the saturation of it. It’s not opacity, but it’s like it gives you a wrap over like, like 10 or I think is it 10 or 11. Like levels of strength of that color. Got it. So from a super light version of that color to a super dark version of that color, I believe, is the is the phrase I want to use there.

And it will also show you like contrast ratios. So yeah, that’s nice. Yeah, so which versions of those color combinations work against black and white for color contrast, and which means accessibility purposes.

So this tool, though, is nice for that because it does the math for you. It does the color math for you. So that if you’re thinking about well, this is the color I want as the basis and so I want to have like a light version of that and a dark version of that for like accents and highlights and shadows. This solves that problem a little bit by giving you the mathematically equivalent steps away from that color, right. The other one that I’ve used is Adobe’s color tool, previously KU L E R, that stylized spelling, but now it’s just color the Oh Melton Okay, color.adobe.com This is probably my this is cool.

though. Yeah, so you can pick from like it, you start with the color wheel, pick a color that works for you. And then you can click through, and there’s all different types of what they call harmony rules. So you start with analogous, which means they’re all and I’m gonna, I’m going to use these words wrong. And I’m afraid to even like try to say this, because again, I’m not a design person, that if you were to draw a radius out from the center of the color wheel, these would be colors that are evenly spaced within about a 45 degree angle at the same radius of luminance, basically, that’s roughly correct.

Is that roughly correct, you can go monochromatic, which keeps them all along the same radius, you can go try add, which gives you at every What is it 120 degrees, you can color at every 120 degrees. Complementary colors. This is then colors at along a diameter of somewhere along the diameter equidistant from the center, split complementary, double split complementary square compound shades, you’ve got all of these different deals, and what they do is they are using math to give you a color combination. And usually they’re pretty darn good.

Like when you see them, you get a palette of five colors that you can work with, then what you can do is you can take those five colors, go over to Color box, and build ramps out of them. Unknown Speaker Mm hmm.

So you could turn five colors into 50 colors.

Here’s what I want to ask you is have you ever used the extract theme? Unknown Speaker No. Oh,

oh, sir. If you go, if you go to the Adobe Color tool, and you upload an image into the extract three theme panel, it will build a color palette based on an image. Unknown Speaker Oh, that’s actually really good, right? Yeah.

So like it cool. If you have some visual imagery you’re building around, or let’s say you have a product, right? If you’ve got some kind of product that you need to build a landing page for, and you have a picture of that product, you could put it in here and use it to pick colors from that product to generate a color palette for you. It’s fantastic. This is it’s it’s pretty impressive. I use this recently, as I’m kind of working out the color palette to use for the ethics website. I’ve got a photo in the masthead. And I’m using that photo to generate the color palette that’s used to the through the rest of that site. The grays and the Pink’s that are in there come from that photo.

This is like it as far as crutches go. I love this. Oh, I love this deeply. And the same way you can actually develop gradients, it’s got a gradient tool that will do the same thing. You upload an image and it will pick colors along a spectrum of the same color for you. And they’ve got an accessibility tool that you can just go in and check is color A and color B Do they have enough contrast with each other.

It’s decision paralysis. Right, we have an infinite number effectively of colors to choose from. And so if I’m trying to pick a five color palette for something, and looking at like your cinnamon, right here, it’s like, I would have a hard time picking colors out of that cinnamon bun photo and feel like these are the ones that are right. Right. There’s a certain, I guess, authority that comes from like a tool that Adobe made. That is like, these are the colors we are picking. And I’m like, You know what? I think that’s good. I think it looks right.

And I’m going to trust your algorithm. And it’s, it’s not like that’s one of those things like it helps break that sort of inability to say, Well, I’m picking these colors. And I don’t know if I can justify my color choices. But

it picked a green to go in with that, and you didn’t like the green, so you just adjusted it to not have the green and the green.

Beyond colors, we can talk about typography. Yes, typography is a huge part of the web. Because we consume the web in three ways, audio, video, and text, I my advice is a don’t over rely on them, it is really easy to go to a free font site and find all kinds of fancy fonts and want to use them all. And that becomes a speed problem for your website, it becomes a size problem for your website to have tons and tons of fonts. And it’s just too much. It’s okay to have a web font or two. But if you start pushing into three or more, you need to ask yourself how how do these fonts serve the design at that point.

And so it’s it’s a cautionary tale. But I do like font as a stand in for some design. Because it can be interesting, it can be visually appealing, it can draw attention to something using it in the masthead or on a call to action or something like that can get people’s eye and make up for the fact that you don’t know maybe what to do there. Otherwise, you don’t have a fancy logo or you don’t have a really like high detailed SVG of some kind of illustration. And there are a million fonts out there. So maybe you can find a font that will help tell the story of the site that you’re wanting

And, and you you want to make sure to keep it readable. There are tons of fonts out there that are very, shall we say artistic in nature. And they’re please terrible. Don’t

Body copies should always be nice and plain. Basic. That doesn’t mean don’t use a web font for them. Oh no,

Simple. Always keep simple sans serif in mind for body fonts, maybe a nice elegant Sarah for headers and things like that. Or vice versa. Okay, so dialed scripting. Yeah,

collibra I think is the Colibri the replacement for Ariel

I like your use of the term novelty font. That works. That works extremely well. With the current design collateral we use for drunken UX, like on our social images and album cover. I use a novelty font for that. That is fun. That is a great example of me using the font to make up for my lack of design skills. And it worked. Okay, for a while. I want to do better than that now.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we could imagine trying to read an entire paragraph of text and stencil thought that that would work.

tools. Adobe also has their fonts tool, though, you do have to have a Creative Cloud license to use it. If you don’t have a Creative Cloud license. Google fonts is one option. And another option is font squirrel. I don’t know if people still use font squirrel, but I used the heck out of it years ago. And I know they’re still around. And they have like royalty free open license web fonts that you can go use. And cool. Dig through and find something that matches you know the style that you want. So go go check all of those out. Now let’s talk design.

The actual design, like encompassing of anything artistic. Most of the time, you’re going to need icons of some kind. And I don’t want to design icons. I don’t. I’m not again, I’m not good at that. I don’t understand going into InDesign and creating SVG. That’s not that’s just not my bag. Yo, am I allowed to say that? And I feel like I’m way too old to say something like that.

Okay. I have my skateboards in the closet, my music band shirts in the laundry. I’m sorry. Fanta awesome, is a great resource, though, for lots of like icons of all different types. It’s a paid service, they do have a free tier with a ton of stuff that

A similar tool is the noun project. I like that one a lot. Two noun project is very cool. Yeah, same deal. They have a free tier, but they also have paid tears, if you’re so inclined. The 40 bucks a year, if you are a professional web dev, you get a lot for that 40 bucks, that can really get in and fill a lot of gaps. And if you are working at an organization, it’s even better because it can help take care of so if they don’t want to pay, you know, $60,000 a year for designer, then how about spend 40 bucks each year on the noun project and get a noun pro subscription and be able to have access to all of this stuff.

And the way to you know, change size, color, all of this kind of stuff. Definitely

Yes. Yeah. though. That’s, that’s a great call out. Especially because again, we’ll talk about this in just a second there also familiar to people. Yeah, that’s another big pro. That’s one of the reasons fontawesome as well. fontawesome is out there so much. A lot of their stuff is very like readily apparent to people.

That’s a cool, I’ve not done that. That’s a cool idea, though. Yeah, remix, remix baby. Layout wise thinking like, the whole site and how you’re going to do that. One piece of advice I will give you is go find yourself an opinionated framework. Yeah, an opinionated framework can help fill in with their design choices for things that you may not be ready to tackle. So you just brought material icons, right? Material design, is a design system, you can go download, will get all their CSS, and they have made design choices for their framework, so that when you start using it, your site is going to naturally want to follow some of those choices they have made.

What are your warm options look like? Yeah, how to labels and

Right, right, as most developers would. So this makes those choices for you change some colors, change some sizes or whatever, set the variables you’re good to go. US W DS is another one of these right? The United States Web Design System. This is we’ve mentioned this before on the show, it’s it’s the official design system of governmental websites, that’s also freely available for you to use. And they have made a lot of these choices.

Will it look like other sites designed with it? Yes, absolutely. But that’s probably not your biggest concern at that point. Like,

Right? It makes it look nice. It looks nice. We’re and I we have a very specific call out to reinforce this. One thing authorized. It’s not a design system or framework, but it is a template library. I’m going to mention. I’ve recommended this to people many, many times. It’s HTML five up, and I’m looking at some this is a tough shit.

this is built by AJ. And dude, I would love to give you credit for your last name. And I pulled you up as I’m talking about this. And your Twitter is just AJ lkn. So but AJ has created this and it released these templates under a Creative Commons license. They are vanilla, HTML and CSS. They are available under Creative Commons. There are a lot of them, what 1819 Something like that, that you can go in and download. And all of these make for great like starting points where you can go in there and edit them clean them up, change colors, use parts of it or not parts of it. But this is been like a really nice starting point.

I’ve used it for sites, I’ve recommended it to a lot of people. If you’re doing a static like site generator type setup, something like this is fantastic because it can make up all of the basis of your templates. And it doesn’t need WordPress crap. It doesn’t need Django it doesn’t need any kind of Joomla stuff or or Adobe web experience or experience engine or whatever it’s called. That’s I got all of those, right?

a coat of paint on it. It’s the same house, but it’s a different color. Now.

The same goes for all the other ones, right, like Bootstrap. Foundation.

yeah, it’s got design choices that have been made in it. Yeah. Unknown Speaker It’s any

kind, anything you do, wireframe wise, can help lead to design inspiration, because you’re still dealing in space, you’re still dealing in layout. I,

AI. That’s fair, man, that’s totally fair. This

much changes your headspace, right, like getting away from the monitor, there’s there is something very visceral about that process.

it. But all design starts with that sort of basic prototyping wireframing. Draw where you want things and see where you go. Because here’s the thing, from wireframes, you can always get into minimalism. If you’re not good in design, if you’re not like great at creating graphics, and all of that minimalism is still design. And sticking to a simple grid with basic boxes and things like that, that is still design, you are still making something that is visually appealing. There’s a there’s a quote from an article over at top tall, that it says if you don’t know what you’re doing, do less.

I love that, which is a brilliant variant on our freight favorite phrase of do less better. And so if if you’re feeling overwhelmed by design concepts and decision making and figuring out colors or objects, then keep it simple, do less think wireframe and work up from there. I did that with the drunken UX redesign. And I layered one extra sort of piece on top of that, which was geometry. Geometry is very simple. geometry can be done with polygons in CSS. And so what you’re going to end up seeing with this redesign is a lot of design design decisions that come from the fact that I know math, and I’m comfortable in math. And I said if I know math, I can do geometry. And geometry is also design. Sure.

or be careful about being bold that everybody everybody’s got that friend that likes some bizarre food, or goes to the Thai restaurant and gets it Thai spicy. You know, like, like, everybody’s got that person in their life. And it’s like, just because you like all the ketchup on your steak or all the salt on your pasta or all the spice in your soup. Doesn’t mean everybody else will resist some of those urges. If you’re not comfortable as a designer, boldness is kind of your enemy a little bit and you should think about it like keep those bumpers up on the bowling alley for a little bit.

Okay, you know, like, let’s actually get really comfortable throwing that ball down. down the lane, before we take them down and get crazy and throw a ball across, you know, to other people’s lanes. This but this is, while I can tell you funny little anecdotes and metaphors for this. This is Jacobs law in action. Yeah, this is if you’re not comfortable with the design, it’s, it’s always going to be best to stick to things that your users are familiar with things that are tried and true. And that won’t push them away. Because Oh, it’s too salty. Oh, it’s whatever. That’s,

This also makes it important to make the point of whatever you’re building, and whatever you’re designing, get your feedback really early. Don’t make the whole cake, and then have somebody try it. And find out the batter first. Yeah, taste the batter first, like check in a couple times with folks see how they are reacting to these things you’re making.

a space like that, that’s a nice mentality.

And be prepared for the feedback. You said, you said murder your darlings. Be prepared for people to hate the one that you love. Yeah, that may be the one that that that may be the one that’s a little too salty.

I’ll wrap up this part of the conversation just to give you some inspiration ideas, because again, like Jacobs law, and like be wearing the bold, look at what other folks have done. Dribble, I think is still a great place to go and just look around and type in what you’re looking for what you’re trying to build, and get some you know, inspiration from what other people have done. Behance has a very similar tool I’ll have linked in the show notes. Again, where you can go and look at web design, look at different techniques, look at how people have tackled the same challenges that you’re looking to tackle that can answer a lot of questions for you.

And give you a sense of how do I make this thing in a way that other people will react positively to the this the generic version of this is go look at other things like you, if you’re going to build a site for a video game that you play, well go look at other sites for games that are similar to it. Go look and other people who have tackled this problem and see what they’re doing and how they’ve found success, because that’s gonna tell you a lot that you can

True. That’s fair. Girls under trees, girls under trees, carousels, carousels all Yeah, no, that’s fair. Because there is a there is a lot of follow the leader mentality and that doesn’t necessarily end well. But generally speaking

trust a lot of that.

Yeah, the, the one piece of advice I really want to give is, get away from the computer, go to a museum, go to a park, go walk around some of the buildings in your downtown, go, just be around things in space. Look at the shirts people are wearing, look at the colors they’re using on the front of a house, look at the shapes they’re cutting bushes into, there’s a lot of inspiration that you can draw from the world around you. And there’s a lot of world.

Let’s wrap this up with one quick run through. So there’s an article over at CSS tricks by Andrew Spencer. It he wrote this up as design principles for developers. And he focused on three concepts that are pretty close to what we just talked about. He broke them down as color space and typography. It’s okay, if you’re like this, if you’re a developer trying to figure out how to think about design, this is a great way to approach it. Because that encompasses most of the stuff that you will do.

The reason I want to run through these real fast is because of how they align to the laws of UX. Okay, I thought it was funny, I thought it was interesting. And I thought maybe it would give a some rationale to kind of ground what we’re talking about in the maybe help make it more concrete. So color. When we think about color. And we talked about the Adobe Color tool, and the color palettes that you can create with it. Why do we create color palettes?

part of a whole the law of similarity. The human eye tends to perceive similar elements in a design as a complete picture, shape or group, even if those elements elements are separated. Color is one of the ways that we can apply similarity to things. So headings may all be a similar color, the backgrounds of a key takeaway block might be a similar color buttons might be a similar color, we make these things similar to or we make these things the same color to draw similarity.

Let’s talk space, we’ve got three that we can rely on here. Law of common region, elements tend to be perceived into groups if they are sharing an area with a clearly defined boundary. Law of Proximity. Objects that are near or proximate to each other tend to be grouped together. And the Vaughn, rest restore God Vaughn restore effect, also known as the isolation effect, predicts that when multiple similar objects are present, the one that differs from the rest is most likely to be remember. That’s neat. So what does all this have to do with space? whitespace and negative space is also design.

whitespace is a huge design tool. And you can convey an an enormous amount of information about the thing you’re building based on how you group things, how you put them together in space, how you combine them with borders, or shadows, anything like that. space can be a powerful, powerful conveyor of information.

last one’s typography. And this one’s the aesthetic usability effect. Users often perceive aesthetically pleasing design as design that’s more usable when we were talking about fonts. And I said, that’s interesting. Don’t Don’t use too many fonts. And don’t overload yourself with novelty fonts. If it’s not aesthetically pleasing, it doesn’t matter how good everything else is, if it’s ugly, people will perceive it as being less usable.

thoughts. To keep your thoughts in mind, sit back, take a second break, maybe even a Five second break. And we’ll be right back. If you enjoyed tonight’s episode, and we really hope that you have, be sure to check us out on Twitter or Facebook at slash drunken UX. If you’re on Instagram, we’re slash drunken UX podcast. And if you ever want to chat with us, by golly, come see us on Discord. It’s drunken ux.com/discord That’ll drop you right in there. And you’ll be the first to hear anything. You can ask us questions. You can chat with us. Because I live on Discord.

No, no, that’s it. It really reminds me to have like how important a the show is made for you guys. I enjoy making it I enjoy talking about this stuff and educating folks and sharing what we know and what we’ve learned over. I just had this conversation like I’m now getting ready to go to into about 26 years worth of building websites. And it’s one thing to talk to folks on Twitter and or Facebook or things and answer these questions and build these relationships. But now that we have the Patreon set up and people can come and and show their support, it gives us another channel to really learn how to keep our personas close and our users closer. Bye bye